Morning Bell – 2.10.2009

Thing to Start With

I didn’t see a single minute of basketball yesterday.  I had to chaperone a winter crowning at a high school, obviously.  But that doesn’t mean we don’t have anything to talk about.

Thing to Address

This comment was pretty well thought out.  It questioned my theory that the Lakers are vulnerable to a strong inside attack, and made me think.  Let’s delve in to that.

First, let’s look at Minnesota, Toronto, and Portland.  These are obviously not championship caliber teams, and therefore can’t really matchup with the Lakers.  Hence, their inside games won’t really affect the outcome.  That’s easy to agree upon, right?  I mean, the Lakers had a big man score 20 against them in 4 out of 6 of those games and still won, so obviously those teams just aren’t good enough to beat the Lakers, regardless of the strength of their inside game.  Moving on.

Next we’ll look at Houston and Phoenix, good teams that might be able to win a playoff series.  For starters, one of the Phoenix games could be ignored as Shaq did not play.  However, in the game Shaq didn’t play, Amar’e Stoudemire went for 21 and 11.  In the game Shaq did play in, he, Amar’e, and Boris Diaw were all in double digits.  Houston, on the other hand, has seen Yao Ming held in check during their two matchups with the Lakers.  Well, kind of.  He went for 12 and 8 their first matchup (in 23 minutes) and 19 and 17 in their second.  Of course, Carl Landry had 12 and 6 during the first game and 20 and 8 the second game.

This leaves Boston, Cleveland, and San Antonio.  Boston is hard to make a case for being an “inside” team, as their main big man (Kevin Garnett) shoots 72% jumpers and their other post players are Kendrick Perkins and Big Baby.  Cleveland features players such as Ben Wallace and Anderson Varejao playing large minutes at post spots, negating that position’s offensive production.  Yes, Zydrunas Ilgauskas is a good scorer, but as stated in the comment, he’s best when shooting jump shots.  The LeBron as inside threat is a fallacy.  Yes, he gets to the rim better than any other player, but this isn’t a true “inside game.”  When the Cavs need a basket, they don’t go to LeBron in the post.  They get him the ball outside and let him create.  You wouldn’t call Allen Iverson an inside threat just because he gets to the basket.  Not to mention, 61% of LeBron’s shots are jumpers.  San Antonio, as mentioned, has beaten the Lakers.  In that game, Tim Duncan scored 20 and had 10 rebounds.  In the game the Lakers won, he had 15 and 8.

Now, given all this evidence (along with two losses to Orlando where Dwight Howard had 18 and 12, then 25 and 20), I think it’s fairly easy to conclude that the Lakers do struggle with teams that have talented inside players.  However, for a team to beat the Lakers, they have to have more than just an inside threat.  They have to be surrounded by other players who are going to contribute effectively, not Wally Szczerbiak and Jamario Moon.  Orlando has that.  They have a guy in Howard who can punish the Lakers inside, and then they have Turkoglu and Lewis outside to make the Lakers pay for doubling down.  As much as I like Pau (he’s my favorite player in the League), he can easily be overwhelmed physically.  That’s why the loss of Bynum hurts so much.  He too is prone to being manhandled inside, but he’s still a pretty decent defender.  But the biggest problem is that his loss puts a bigger burden on Odom and Walton to be tough inside defenders, which isn’t their specialty.  Finally, the chance that the Lakers and Magic meet again this year is slim, but if they do, it’s for a title.  That doesn’t necessarily bode well for Los Angeles.

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I think the original argument would be better accompnaied by stats as to how inside big men performed against their averages rather than just stating the points/rebounds. Maybe +/- numbers for those games and PER differentials?

I don't know what the objective answer is here, but Tim Duncan going for 20/10 doesn't tell me much about any particular game...

Forgot to add to the sentence "Both Fisher and Farmar have trouble with quick PGs, and a quick, pentrating PG combined with a big man who can stretch the floor gives the Lakers a lot of trouble." I left out that quick, penetrating PGs give the Lakers more trouble if the Laker bigs have been drawn away from the basket. That's also Wild Yams'point. Whenever the Lakers play, there will ALWAYS be a lot of penetration by the opposing PG. It doesn't harm the Lakers very much if Bynum is close to the basket (Gasol's rim coverage in the Lakers' scheme is also improving).

I think this whole debate is really about who gives the Lakers the most trouble in the REGULAR season. Defending the 3-pt line is all about focusing on making quick rotations, and about effort. I've seen every game this season, and the Laker defense inside the paint is, quite simply, vastly improved from last season (even without Bynum). With Bynum, their interior defense is downright frightening. I would have to come down a little bit on the side of Wild Yams' argument, though. Both Fisher and Farmar have trouble with quick PGs, and a quick, penetrating PG combined with a big man who can stretch the floor gives the Lakers a lot of trouble. It's one thing to bother a 3-pt shooter or an 18-20 ft jump shooter if he's Ray Allen's size. It's another when it's someone who's 6-10 or taller like Peja, West, Rashard, Murphy, etc.

Anyway, back to my original point, which is come playoff time, when effort and focus on 3-pt defense is at a maximum (more rest between games, more at stake), the 3-pt shooting-centric teams won't bother the Lakers as much.

Yesterday’s statement “Of course, their kryptonite is Orlando. A very strong inside attack is a problem for the Lakers, but you knew that.” was just snide nonsense, IMO, so I called him out on it. Against the backdrop of the Laker wins in Boston and Cleveland it came across to me as more self-reassurance than anything. As if saying “beating Cleveland and Boston like that doesn’t matter because Orlando owns the Lakers, as do all the other teams in the league with strong inside players.”

I don't understand where this whole paragraph came from. Shall I point you to the numerous times I've said that I don't consider the Magic realistic title contenders BEFORE Nelson went down? Or where I've maintained that the Lakers are the title favorites? Look, I understand that you want to stick up for your team, but this entire paragraph (which you say is the impetus for your argument) is wrong.

Either:

a) you don't understand the concept of Kryptonite to Superman. (Kryptonite is the one thing that kills Superman, much how the Magic have swept the Lakers this year.)

OR

b) you forgot the part where I said the Lakers were the best team in the League.

Furthermore, when did I ever say Gasol was soft or that Bynum is overrated? Those words have never been written by me. I will maintain that a strong inside attack can be problematic for a team that AS OF NOW only has Pau Gasol as a big man.

This thread has made me never want to write about the Lakers again. I can only hope Chris Mihm gets the ring he deserves.

The reason I jumped on this the way I did is because, as I said yesterday, it's typical around here to say Gasol is soft and Bynum is overrated; so jumping on the Lakers' interior D is, IMO, a subtle way of perpetuating that, even if the data doesn't support it. Gasol & Bynum have their shortcomings, of course, but the reality is that for the most part the Lakers' interior defense is quite good. Losing twice to Orlando doesn't speak against that, despite them having Dwight Howard. Those games were won more by the Magic 3-pt shooting than by Dwight Howard's inside offense.

Yesterday's statement "Of course, their kryptonite is Orlando. A very strong inside attack is a problem for the Lakers, but you knew that." was just snide nonsense, IMO, so I called him out on it. Against the backdrop of the Laker wins in Boston and Cleveland it came across to me as more self-reassurance than anything. As if saying "beating Cleveland and Boston like that doesn't matter because Orlando owns the Lakers, as do all the other teams in the league with strong inside players."

To me this seems silly to say for two reasons: One, does anyone really think the Magic have more than a hail mary's prayer of a chance of making it past Boston and Cleveland in the playoffs? I don't. And two, there aren't any other teams out there with a strong enough inside attack to really threaten the Lakers' interior D, at least as long as Bynum gets healthy, of course. The teams out there who have big guys and solid post players are 3-15 against the Lakers this year, with Orlando representing two of those wins.

If Trey is really just concerned with who might beat the Lakers this year, I think it boils down to only Cleveland and Boston in the East (since I don't see anyone else making it out from there), and San Antonio and maybe MAYBE New Orleans and Houston in the West (but really just San Antonio). If San Antonio beats LA this year it's not going to be because Tim Duncan averages 30 & 20 for the series, but rather it's going to be because of a balanced attack from their Big 3, and with strong play from Mason, Bonner and Finley thrown in. But as I've said many times around here, until the Spurs start showing that they're defending at a level that they were a year or two ago, I just can't see them outscoring LA. The Lakers' offense is too good for the Spurs to win by getting into a shootout with them. Boston & Cleveland play the kind of defense the Spurs used to, and that's why they definitely could beat LA in a series. But San Antonio still has a long ways to go to get me to think they're ready to go back to The Finals.

I'll admit that you both seem to have researched this further than I have, but here's my two cents: I think that, very simply, the Lakers' are most vulnerable to a 3-point barrage. I don't think that is limited to teams with big men, just to any team that can light it up from downtown.

How do I know this? I'll admit it's completely subjective. But I've watched every loss, and the thing that I seem to remember from each game is shouting something along the lines of, "Jesus Christ, MISS ALREADY!!"

By the way, I think I have to go with Wild Yams' definition of "struggle" -- the Lakers struggle against Charlotte, and other teams like that who have repeatedly beaten them of late. I don't care of if you give up 50 points and 20 rebounds to a single post player, if you beat the team by 30 points, you didn't struggle with them. So to me, the teams the Lakers struggle against are the teams that have shown an ability to repeatedly beat them.

But take a look at some of our losses. If Orlando hadn't hit all those three pointers, they simply wouldn't have been in the game. Same for Charlotte. When the Cavs took the lead heading into the half on Sunday? They were killing it from three.

It's not scientific or even moderately well researched... I just have this not-completely-defined-or-quantified impression that tells me that every time I can remember things going south for the Lakers, I also remember their opponents hitting tons of threes.

And unless my semi-subconscious, completely subjective memory is way off (more than a little bit possible), I suspect that if you look at the losses, and even the tougher wins, you'll find that Lakers' opponents typically made their push with 3-pointers.

As I've said I think the Lakers' Achilles heel is teams with big men who can shoot (Boston is one of those teams, btw, as is Cleveland), but if you wanted to point to the real weakness in the Laker D, I think most Laker experts will tell you it's their propensity to leave 3-pt shooters on the weakside wide open. With their strong side zone defense that they play it makes it tougher for guys like LeBron to drive, and it makes it tougher for people to post up on the strong side; but the rotations to the weak side are frequently late and/or the Lakers get confused about what their defensive assignment is and it results in a lot of open threes.

I think if Bynum is healthy in the playoffs LA really isn't going to have to worry about a big post presence beating them, in no small part because there just aren't that many of those out there. I don't see Shaq, Yao or Duncan consistently punishing LA in the post for a series (they've held each of them in check pretty well so far this year); and in the East I doubt Orlando's gonna make it past Boston and Cleveland w/o Jameer, while Boston's not going to rely on Kendrick Perkins to post any more than Cleveland will rely on Ben Wallace or Z to.

I think the Lakers are more susceptible to penetration from slashers like Tony Parker and Chris Paul (or even Aaron Brooks), but that really goes back to how healthy Bynum was. He disrupted the hell out of Tony Parker in that last Spurs game, while also outplaying Tim Duncan on both ends. That's near the top of what Bynum can do right now, and I won't expect that with any consistency in the playoffs, especially coming off another injury; but he is a very disruptive presence in the paint defensively.

It all comes down to Bynum's health though. Without him LA's faced with having the same interior D that lost them The Finals last year (which doesn't mean LA's out of it, as we just saw in their last two games). With Bynum the Lakers have a hell of a lot of size to throw at any team in the league.

I contradicted myself a little bit there. I don't consider LeBron an inside threat, which is all I was trying to address with that comment. The Cavs aren't a "inside" team. They're a perimeter-based team. I wasn't relating that to the Lakers at all. But getting to the basket does say something about a team's interior defense. I agree with that. The Lakers did great against LeBron on Sunday.

Here is what it boils down to for me: I'm not worried about the Lakers losing to Charlotte, Indiana, Sacramento, Detroit, Miami in the playoffs. New Orleans could happen if they catch fire. San Antonio and Orlando have the pieces necessary to beat LA in the playoffs, and not just as a fluke. Because seriously, is Phil Jackson shaking in his shorts game planning for jump-shooting big men? No. He's worried about how to neutralize guys like Duncan and Howard who are post threats, or LeBron and Paul, who can slice in to the heart of their defense.

I've enjoyed the back and forth, but I'm exhausted on this subject and can't imagine doing anymore research to try to show that the worst part of the Lakers defense (which is still pretty good) is their inside D. I'm concerned solely with how they might lose in the playoffs, as I consider them the best team in the league right now. If I end up wrong, and the Cavs win behind 40 points from Ilgauskas jumpers, I promise you a congratulatory post.

OK, now I'm a bit confused, because you just stated in the post that LeBron was not the kind of inside presence you're referring to, and instead talked about guys like Dwight Howard, Yao and Tim Duncan as post players; but now you're saying those other teams beat LA because of the ability of players to slash and drive on the Lakers' interior D? Which is it?

If you look at my comment yesterday, I said "Having big men who can defend the Laker bigs on one end while being able to pull them away from the basket on the other (thus opening up the middle), seems to be the way to beat LA." I stand by that. If LA's interior D was susceptible to drives and penetration against those teams, it is because those teams had big men who were shooting from the perimeter which forced Gasol and/or Bynum to have to leave the paint and get a hand up for 3-pt shots. Let's go game by game and look at the Lakers' nine losses:

Detroit - Rasheed Wallace shoots 12 perimeter jumpers (including 4-9 from 3) for a team high 25 points, thus pulling his defender away from the paint and allowing Allen Iverson to score 25 points of his own on only 12 FGAs.

Indiana - Troy Murphy & Rasho Nesterovic take 16 perimeter jumpers between the two of them and Danny Granger goes 4-10 from deep. With the middle opened up, TJ Ford carves LA up for 21 points and the Lakers lose on a last second tip in despite scoring 117 points.

Sacramento - Brad Miller & Spencer Hawes shoot 10 perimeter jumpers between the two of them to go with 13 3-pt attempts from Sergio Garcia, John Salmons and Bobby Jackson. LA lost this one mainly due to really horrible transition D which led to easy layups early in the shot clock.

Miami - This one was really just tough Heat defense and a lot of Dwyane Wade. Cook & Chalmers 3-pt shooting (13 combined attempts) probably helped soften the middle a bit, but LA's D was still pretty decent only surrendering 89 points in the loss. It should be noted that Wade only scored four of his 35 points on baskets made in the paint, however.

Orlando (first meeting) - A legit 3-pt barrage from almost the entire Magic roster, with 30 attempts from distance. Dwight Howard only had 6 FGAs, though he did have 15 FTAs meaning he actually shot it 13 times for his 18 points. Rashard Lewis only had one shot attempt in the paint, and Jameer Nelson only had 5 (4 of which were from around the FT line) en route to their 22 & 27 points.

New Orleans - LA pretty well creamed the Hornets in their first two matchups, but on this night it was too much CP3 and David West as they went for 32 & 40, respectively. The shot chart tells the tale: of West's 40 points only 4 were scored on shots in the paint as he hit 10 perimeter jumpers. This outside strike from West pulled Gasol away from the basket and allowed Paul to hit five shots in the paint. Bynum did hold Tyson Chandler in check, however, as Chandler only had one shot attempt (a lob from CP3).

San Antonio - Another 3-pt bonanza as Matt Bonner went 2-5, Roger Mason went 3-4 and Manu Ginobili went 4-8. Almost all of Duncan's shots were in the paint, although as I said above he hit less than half of them; while only one of Matt Bonner's 6 shots were attempted from anywhere closer than 20 feet. Parker got into the paint a lot, but Ginobili only hit 3 shots in the paint en route to 27 points. Roger Mason also only attempted one shot from closer than 15 feet, which he missed.

Orlando (second meeting) - 12-28 from three, but this time Dwight Howard got 18 FGAs & 16 FTAs. Other than Dwight though, the other 4 Magic starters combined to go 11-25 from deep. Jameer Nelson again led the way for Orlando with 28 points, 6 of which came on shots made in the paint. Rashard Lewis only attempted 2 shots from closer than 20 feet, missing one.

Charlotte - Twenty-six three point attempts, nine made. Emeka Okafor had 18 points on 12 shots, but the damage in this game was done by Boris Diaw's perimeter shooting, as Diaw led the Cats with 23 points (only 4 of which came in the paint). Raja Bell also killed LA with his perimeter shooting (only one shot from closer than 20 feet), and now-Laker Shannon Brown also hurt the Lakers with his outside shooting (only two shots from inside the arc). The Lakers were leading this one by 3 in OT when Kobe fouled out and the Lakers gave up a three pointer to Boris Diaw to tie it and send it to double OT.

So there's the 9 Laker losses, and in all honesty it doesn't look like a whole lot of inside damage there. Really it's just very tough to beat any team when they're on fire from the perimeter, because if you guard them too close when they're that far from the basket you risk giving up easy layups.

LA is top 10 in the league in field goal percentage against for 3 pointers and 2 point jump shots. They are 15th in the league in field goal percentage against in "inside" shots. Whereas a team like Cleveland is top 5 in all three categories. This leads me to believe that if there is a defensive deficiency, it's in their interior defense.

It's clearly a difference in opinion, because you can also look at their losses as those teams having a guard who can break down their defense. AI/Stuckey/Hamilton, Granger, Salmons/Martin, Wade, Nelson, Paul, TP/Manu, and Felton are all creator types that open up the Lakers defense. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think their most pressing defensive issue is inside.

Man, guess I kinda have to respond. I started off my comment yesterday by pointing out that any team is going to have trouble facing a team with a strong inside attack. In other words, you really won't find any team out there who's going to regularly limit guys like Tim Duncan, Yao Ming or Dwight Howard to games where they only get 10 & 5 or something. The Lakers have, however, held Chris Bosh to a game of 12 & 6, held Shaq to 15 & 9, held Yao to 12 & 8 (as you mentioned) and held Duncan to 15 & 8 (also as you mentioned), and held Greg Oden to 10 total points and 9 total rebounds in two games. I'm sure there are more examples too, but I'm not going to go through every game to find them.

This was my point though: the Lakers barely lost to Orlando twice, with each game being one that could have gone either way (LA was tied with a minute left in the first matchup and led with under a minute to go in the second matchup), so as evidence that they own the Lakers or are their kryptonite as you said, I think that's a little flimsy, and especially don't think that it necessarily bodes poorly for them should they meet Orlando in The Finals. Orlando did beat the Lakers twice though, so I'll give you that. My issue was how you then took that and extrapolated it into meaning LA has trouble against teams with a strong inside attack. I listed off every team in the league I could think of that has a strong inside attack and asked if I missed any (did I?), and including Orlando LA is 15-3 against those teams (btw, those 3 games they lost have been by a combined total of 10 points). So I ask you again: outside of narrowly losing to Orlando twice and allowing a couple bigmen to score more than 20, what evidence is there that LA struggles against teams that rely heavily on inside scoring?

Since to really say LA struggles against teams with a strong inside attack it should show that the games themselves were tough fought, rather than just that one guy was allowed to score a bunch, let's look at some of the scores in these games to see if they really were competitive or not:

Phoenix - We'll throw out the second matchup since Shaq skipped it to attend a funeral, and instead look at the first matchup, which was in Phoenix. In that game the Lakers won by 13 and actually led by as much as 18 in the 4th quarter. It was not a very close game.

Houston - In the first matchup in LA Houston started off strong, but LA ended up finishing the game on a 95-50 run and won by 29 points. The second matchup in Houston was much closer with LA only winning by 5, though LA did have a couple players out due to injury.

San Antonio - In the first matchup the Lakers were playing very shorthanded on the 2nd night of a back to back and still almost won on the road if not for some last second heroics by Roger Mason. Duncan had 20 & 10 but was only 9-19 from the field and San Antonio really won on the strength of their perimeter players, with Ginobili, Parker and Mason combining for 65 points while Matt Bonner and George Hill chipped in 10 each. In the second game the Lakers were healthy and rested at home and blew the Spurs out, ultimately winning by 14 after being up by as many as 21 in the 4th quarter.

Portland - LA won the first matchup by 20 and the second matchup by 14 after leading by as many as 19 in the 4th quarter.

So there's how LA fared against the other teams you consider to have strong inside attacks, and it doesn't look to me like LA really struggled much against them. At least, I don't think you can convincingly say the Lakers struggle against teams with strong inside attacks based on the results of those games, wouldn't you say?

The other thing I was trying to say yesterday was that LA instead struggles against teams with big men who shoot from the perimeter, and if you look at who LA has lost to, you'll see that I'm right. LA's nine losses this year have come against Detroit (Rasheed Wallace), Indiana (Troy Murphy & Rasho Nesterovic), Sacramento (Brad Miller & Spencer Hawes), Miami (Shawn Marion & Michael Beasley), Orlando twice (Rashard Lewis), New Orleans (David West), San Antonio (see above) and Charlotte (Boris Diaw). Do you see a pattern there, or do you think that it was the inside game of all those teams that was LA's undoing?