Comments on: Joe Johnson And The Systemic Eval Crashers http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2009/12/04/joe-johnson-and-the-systemic-eval-crashers/ Unbiased opinions from extremely biased people Wed, 23 May 2012 04:55:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Malthus http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2009/12/04/joe-johnson-and-the-systemic-eval-crashers/comment-page-1/#comment-32052 Malthus Wed, 09 Dec 2009 04:12:10 +0000 http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/?p=4531#comment-32052 Just a short comment because I'm studying for an exam tomorrow. I'm always surprised to hear how many people don't like Joe Johnson in Atlanta. He is not the elite scorer that Kobe Bryant and Lebron James are, but after those two, give me Joe Johnson. Johnson is far and away our best iso option, but he's different from say Dwyane Wade in that a lot of times he passes the ball to someone if he gets double or triple teamed. I don't think he's getting in the way of Marvin's development. I like Marvin and think he should and can continue to get better. But look at Jamal Crawford. He finds a way to get his shots. Marvin should too. I don't think the Hawks can win the championship, but they are very good, and may be the best team in the league who does not have a Lebron, Carmelo, Kobe, Dwight Howard type star on it. My question to people who suggest trading Joe or letting him walk in 2010 to sign someone else is: who are we going to get? The Hawks have built just about as good of a team as can be built without getting lucky in the draft or having a big market to attract a mega star. The other thing is that the Hawks are much better to watch than most other teams in the league. Take, for example, the Cavs. When it comes to playoff crunch time, the Cavs will give the ball to Lebron who will dribble around for the entire shot clock, go charging into the basket, get fouled, and shoot free throws. It's a miserable thing to watch. At least the Hawks play a style that is entertaining. Just a short comment because I’m studying for an exam tomorrow.

I’m always surprised to hear how many people don’t like Joe Johnson in Atlanta. He is not the elite scorer that Kobe Bryant and Lebron James are, but after those two, give me Joe Johnson. Johnson is far and away our best iso option, but he’s different from say Dwyane Wade in that a lot of times he passes the ball to someone if he gets double or triple teamed.

I don’t think he’s getting in the way of Marvin’s development. I like Marvin and think he should and can continue to get better. But look at Jamal Crawford. He finds a way to get his shots. Marvin should too.

I don’t think the Hawks can win the championship, but they are very good, and may be the best team in the league who does not have a Lebron, Carmelo, Kobe, Dwight Howard type star on it. My question to people who suggest trading Joe or letting him walk in 2010 to sign someone else is: who are we going to get? The Hawks have built just about as good of a team as can be built without getting lucky in the draft or having a big market to attract a mega star.

The other thing is that the Hawks are much better to watch than most other teams in the league. Take, for example, the Cavs. When it comes to playoff crunch time, the Cavs will give the ball to Lebron who will dribble around for the entire shot clock, go charging into the basket, get fouled, and shoot free throws. It’s a miserable thing to watch. At least the Hawks play a style that is entertaining.

]]> By: Exiled Atlantan http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2009/12/04/joe-johnson-and-the-systemic-eval-crashers/comment-page-1/#comment-31577 Exiled Atlantan Sat, 05 Dec 2009 22:22:30 +0000 http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/?p=4531#comment-31577 I think PER can't begin to capture Joe Johnson's total negative impact on a developing Hawks team. It can't measure the possessions that Johnson eats up the shot clock and passes into a rushed 20' shot by Josh Smith, Zaza Pachulia, or any other undesirable mid-range shooter. It doesn't account for Marvin Williams developing his game entirely around spotting up and waiting for Johnson to pass out of trouble. It can't measure the higher percentage shots that were not realized when he scores (this is where the "no one complains when he makes it" logic breaks down). It doesn't measure the contagion of selfishness that spreads through the team when he dominates the ball, like the second half of the Thanksgiving Day loss to the Magic where everyone wanted their own chance to be Iso-Joe. Joe Johnson is an exquisite shot-maker but is lacking as a franchise player. He is a perfect second option with a first opinion mentality. Your point is well taken about some teams, like the Rockets, having a need for a player to be a high volume scorer, but I also think Atlanta is not one of those teams anymore. Some responsibility for lack of adjustment has to fall on the lack of imagination/coaching ability of Mike Woodson, but Johnson still has the discretion on the court to pass, come off a screen, and shoot. As a Hawks fan, I'm glad to have seen a glimpse of the team's peak. The start of this year has shown that the team's core does not need to be dismantled to become an elite team. My regret is letting the team win me over after the Miami game. Ultimately, the Johnson/Woodson style of basketball is again exposed as a formula for painful mediocrity. Hopefully, the Atlanta Spirit will show some courage and let Woodson and Johnson walk rather than settle for maintaining an above-average team at the expense of assembling a potential contender. Has there ever been a more appropriate reunion than D'antoni, and Joe on the Knicks if they can't get LeBron, Wade, or Bosh? I think PER can’t begin to capture Joe Johnson’s total negative impact on a developing Hawks team. It can’t measure the possessions that Johnson eats up the shot clock and passes into a rushed 20′ shot by Josh Smith, Zaza Pachulia, or any other undesirable mid-range shooter. It doesn’t account for Marvin Williams developing his game entirely around spotting up and waiting for Johnson to pass out of trouble. It can’t measure the higher percentage shots that were not realized when he scores (this is where the “no one complains when he makes it” logic breaks down). It doesn’t measure the contagion of selfishness that spreads through the team when he dominates the ball, like the second half of the Thanksgiving Day loss to the Magic where everyone wanted their own chance to be Iso-Joe. Joe Johnson is an exquisite shot-maker but is lacking as a franchise player. He is a perfect second option with a first opinion mentality.

Your point is well taken about some teams, like the Rockets, having a need for a player to be a high volume scorer, but I also think Atlanta is not one of those teams anymore. Some responsibility for lack of adjustment has to fall on the lack of imagination/coaching ability of Mike Woodson, but Johnson still has the discretion on the court to pass, come off a screen, and shoot.

As a Hawks fan, I’m glad to have seen a glimpse of the team’s peak. The start of this year has shown that the team’s core does not need to be dismantled to become an elite team. My regret is letting the team win me over after the Miami game. Ultimately, the Johnson/Woodson style of basketball is again exposed as a formula for painful mediocrity. Hopefully, the Atlanta Spirit will show some courage and let Woodson and Johnson walk rather than settle for maintaining an above-average team at the expense of assembling a potential contender.

Has there ever been a more appropriate reunion than D’antoni, and Joe on the Knicks if they can’t get LeBron, Wade, or Bosh?

]]> By: hoopinion http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2009/12/04/joe-johnson-and-the-systemic-eval-crashers/comment-page-1/#comment-31373 hoopinion Fri, 04 Dec 2009 20:07:22 +0000 http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/?p=4531#comment-31373 Matt-- You're right in theory and I think you're right about the subjects I'm not as expert on (Kobe's undoubtedly underrated by PER and paces himself on defense. Houston needs Ariza (and, to a lesser extent Landry) to soak up a lot of possessions.) but you're wrong about Joe in particular. The Hawks don't need him to use so many possessions anymore. Al Horford's usage rate is 16.5, Marvin's is 16.4. (Don't forget two of Atlanta's 12 road wins last year came with Johnson out and saw Marvin Williams used as the first offensive option. Marvin got to the line 34 times in those two games.) They can both handle taking more shots than they currently do and can, especially in Horford's case, also create easier shots for Johnson. Also, whether he's trying to draw fouls or not, Joe doesn't draw fouls (FT Rate: 18.3, league average: 23.0) because he can't beat anyone off the dribble. Perhaps it's mostly because I've predicted it and some part of me wants to be right, but he looks slower and less explosive this season (He has defended 3s better than 1s and 2s so far) as if the mileage is beginning to catch up with him already. Matt–

You’re right in theory and I think you’re right about the subjects I’m not as expert on (Kobe’s undoubtedly underrated by PER and paces himself on defense. Houston needs Ariza (and, to a lesser extent Landry) to soak up a lot of possessions.) but you’re wrong about Joe in particular. The Hawks don’t need him to use so many possessions anymore. Al Horford’s usage rate is 16.5, Marvin’s is 16.4. (Don’t forget two of Atlanta’s 12 road wins last year came with Johnson out and saw Marvin Williams used as the first offensive option. Marvin got to the line 34 times in those two games.) They can both handle taking more shots than they currently do and can, especially in Horford’s case, also create easier shots for Johnson.

Also, whether he’s trying to draw fouls or not, Joe doesn’t draw fouls (FT Rate: 18.3, league average: 23.0) because he can’t beat anyone off the dribble. Perhaps it’s mostly because I’ve predicted it and some part of me wants to be right, but he looks slower and less explosive this season (He has defended 3s better than 1s and 2s so far) as if the mileage is beginning to catch up with him already.

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