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	<title>Comments on: The Diminishing Returns of Rebounds and Other Stats</title>
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	<link>http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2009/12/07/the-diminishing-returns-of-rebounds-and-other-stats/</link>
	<description>Unbiased opinions from extremely biased people</description>
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		<title>By: RobitusinZ</title>
		<link>http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2009/12/07/the-diminishing-returns-of-rebounds-and-other-stats/comment-page-1/#comment-32406</link>
		<dc:creator>RobitusinZ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Dec 2009 19:20:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/?p=4634#comment-32406</guid>
		<description>Wouldn&#039;t the discussion on steals be skewed by the fact that most ball thieves cheat on defense by playing off their man and hounding the passing lanes?  Chris Paul, DWade and LeBron all exhibit that kind of behavior.  A team full of ball thieves aren&#039;t likely to add a linear amount of steals vs. an average team.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wouldn&#8217;t the discussion on steals be skewed by the fact that most ball thieves cheat on defense by playing off their man and hounding the passing lanes?  Chris Paul, DWade and LeBron all exhibit that kind of behavior.  A team full of ball thieves aren&#8217;t likely to add a linear amount of steals vs. an average team.</p>
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		<title>By: el_horse</title>
		<link>http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2009/12/07/the-diminishing-returns-of-rebounds-and-other-stats/comment-page-1/#comment-31989</link>
		<dc:creator>el_horse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 18:47:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/?p=4634#comment-31989</guid>
		<description>John,

Thanks for the confidence intervals. Now we&#039;re on to something. 

Because they don&#039;t overlap, we can see that the slopes for off &amp; def rebounds are different and this is probably the only piece of info we&#039;d get out of the analysis with some (95%) confidence. 

So in other words we&#039;ve just proved that offensive rebounds are far more important for a team than deffensive rebounds, cause we&#039;d get the deffensive ones anyway. That&#039;s actually a nice fact. 

Cheers</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John,</p>
<p>Thanks for the confidence intervals. Now we&#8217;re on to something. </p>
<p>Because they don&#8217;t overlap, we can see that the slopes for off &amp; def rebounds are different and this is probably the only piece of info we&#8217;d get out of the analysis with some (95%) confidence. </p>
<p>So in other words we&#8217;ve just proved that offensive rebounds are far more important for a team than deffensive rebounds, cause we&#8217;d get the deffensive ones anyway. That&#8217;s actually a nice fact. </p>
<p>Cheers</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Nichols</title>
		<link>http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2009/12/07/the-diminishing-returns-of-rebounds-and-other-stats/comment-page-1/#comment-31976</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Nichols</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 16:42:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/?p=4634#comment-31976</guid>
		<description>el_horse,

As I&#039;ve mentioned a few times, goodness of fit (something R-squared measures) is not important here.  I&#039;m not trying to fit a model correctly in order to predict lineups&#039; rebounding rates.  If so, I would include more variables and like you said, try different regressions besides linear.  

The slope for offensive rebounds has a standard error of 0.06902.  Therefore, a 95% confidence interval of the slope would be (0.6326, 0.8597).  The slope for defensive rebounds has a standard error of 0.05130.  It has a 95% confidence interval of (0.2487, 0.4175).  As you can see, we can say with pretty high confidence that the slopes are different.  

Again, goodness of fit is not an issue here.  I&#039;m not trying to fit a model.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>el_horse,</p>
<p>As I&#8217;ve mentioned a few times, goodness of fit (something R-squared measures) is not important here.  I&#8217;m not trying to fit a model correctly in order to predict lineups&#8217; rebounding rates.  If so, I would include more variables and like you said, try different regressions besides linear.  </p>
<p>The slope for offensive rebounds has a standard error of 0.06902.  Therefore, a 95% confidence interval of the slope would be (0.6326, 0.8597).  The slope for defensive rebounds has a standard error of 0.05130.  It has a 95% confidence interval of (0.2487, 0.4175).  As you can see, we can say with pretty high confidence that the slopes are different.  </p>
<p>Again, goodness of fit is not an issue here.  I&#8217;m not trying to fit a model.</p>
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		<title>By: el_horse</title>
		<link>http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2009/12/07/the-diminishing-returns-of-rebounds-and-other-stats/comment-page-1/#comment-31946</link>
		<dc:creator>el_horse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 09:46:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/?p=4634#comment-31946</guid>
		<description>John,

What BigT is trying to say, is that because of the Rsq so low, the slopes cannot be trusted. Ie the error on them is so big that if you are getting a slope of .7, it is as likely for the real slope to be .2 or .99

The data here is not linear, so you cannot use linear regression to come up with answers.

Remember that misuse of statistical tools was a major factor leading to the current bank crisis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John,</p>
<p>What BigT is trying to say, is that because of the Rsq so low, the slopes cannot be trusted. Ie the error on them is so big that if you are getting a slope of .7, it is as likely for the real slope to be .2 or .99</p>
<p>The data here is not linear, so you cannot use linear regression to come up with answers.</p>
<p>Remember that misuse of statistical tools was a major factor leading to the current bank crisis.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Nichols</title>
		<link>http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2009/12/07/the-diminishing-returns-of-rebounds-and-other-stats/comment-page-1/#comment-31935</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Nichols</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 06:30:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/?p=4634#comment-31935</guid>
		<description>BigT,

I think you should read the article more carefully.  Nobody here is trying to predict actual rebound rates based on projected rebound rates.  That would be foolish to do based on, as you mentioned, the low R^2&#039;s.  The importance is the slope, because that is what shows the diminishing returns.  And yes, the slopes are statistically significant, at extremely low levels (such as .000000000000001).  

As the article says,

â€œOf course, like with every graph so far, the R^2 is still very low. This means that we canâ€™t really predict how many steals a lineup will get simply by adding the Steal Rates of all of its players.â€</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BigT,</p>
<p>I think you should read the article more carefully.  Nobody here is trying to predict actual rebound rates based on projected rebound rates.  That would be foolish to do based on, as you mentioned, the low R^2&#8242;s.  The importance is the slope, because that is what shows the diminishing returns.  And yes, the slopes are statistically significant, at extremely low levels (such as .000000000000001).  </p>
<p>As the article says,</p>
<p>â€œOf course, like with every graph so far, the R^2 is still very low. This means that we canâ€™t really predict how many steals a lineup will get simply by adding the Steal Rates of all of its players.â€</p>
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		<title>By: BigT</title>
		<link>http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2009/12/07/the-diminishing-returns-of-rebounds-and-other-stats/comment-page-1/#comment-31929</link>
		<dc:creator>BigT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 05:28:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/?p=4634#comment-31929</guid>
		<description>This is a nice write-up, and the conversation is stimulating.. However, the highest R-squared I found in this topic is a measly .20, which is the equivalent of correlating average waist size of a Martian to weather in guatemala (not very good). 

Before throwing math and statistics at a topic to give it more cred, I would advise on learning about the very methods you derive your conclusions from.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a nice write-up, and the conversation is stimulating.. However, the highest R-squared I found in this topic is a measly .20, which is the equivalent of correlating average waist size of a Martian to weather in guatemala (not very good). </p>
<p>Before throwing math and statistics at a topic to give it more cred, I would advise on learning about the very methods you derive your conclusions from.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Nichols</title>
		<link>http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2009/12/07/the-diminishing-returns-of-rebounds-and-other-stats/comment-page-1/#comment-31894</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Nichols</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 22:48:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/?p=4634#comment-31894</guid>
		<description>The Dude Abides,

That is true, but this study doesn&#039;t include team offensive rebounds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Dude Abides,</p>
<p>That is true, but this study doesn&#8217;t include team offensive rebounds.</p>
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		<title>By: The Dude Abides</title>
		<link>http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2009/12/07/the-diminishing-returns-of-rebounds-and-other-stats/comment-page-1/#comment-31893</link>
		<dc:creator>The Dude Abides</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 22:42:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/?p=4634#comment-31893</guid>
		<description>If one goes back and reads the play-by-play portion of the box score, one notices that the statistician gives a team an offensive rebound if they miss the first of their two free throws after a shooting foul, even though it&#039;s a dead ball. That sort of diminishes a team&#039;s offensive rebounding stat, in my view. It shouldn&#039;t even be counted as a team rebound.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If one goes back and reads the play-by-play portion of the box score, one notices that the statistician gives a team an offensive rebound if they miss the first of their two free throws after a shooting foul, even though it&#8217;s a dead ball. That sort of diminishes a team&#8217;s offensive rebounding stat, in my view. It shouldn&#8217;t even be counted as a team rebound.</p>
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		<title>By: CaptFamous</title>
		<link>http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2009/12/07/the-diminishing-returns-of-rebounds-and-other-stats/comment-page-1/#comment-31890</link>
		<dc:creator>CaptFamous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 22:21:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/?p=4634#comment-31890</guid>
		<description>I can think of a few unscientific reasons why the assist slope would be so low. 

High individual assist counts tend to come from a high occurance of the &quot;I pass, you shoot&quot; meeting of mentalities. When every player is pass-inclined, this occurance breaks down. Also, high assists require a certain amount of ball domination that is less likely on a team with good overall ball-movement. I.E., ball-dominating passers get assists because their teammates don&#039;t take them.

Sink-hole players. Some teams record very few assists because their big time scorers work best in isolation. Adding a high-assist player to this team won&#039;t change this. Dwayne Wade doesn&#039;t become a spot up shooter just because he&#039;s on Steve Nash&#039;s team. I.E. ball-dominating scorers are taking assists away from their teammates.

Pace. More possessions mean more assists, but they also require shorter possessions, which require fewer passes and faster shots. This usually means fast breaks, and loads the assists onto one player. Thus, if 5 pass-happy players play together, either most of them have to sacrafice assists to one player in the name of fast pace, or they all have to sacrafice possessions in the name of ball movement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can think of a few unscientific reasons why the assist slope would be so low. </p>
<p>High individual assist counts tend to come from a high occurance of the &#8220;I pass, you shoot&#8221; meeting of mentalities. When every player is pass-inclined, this occurance breaks down. Also, high assists require a certain amount of ball domination that is less likely on a team with good overall ball-movement. I.E., ball-dominating passers get assists because their teammates don&#8217;t take them.</p>
<p>Sink-hole players. Some teams record very few assists because their big time scorers work best in isolation. Adding a high-assist player to this team won&#8217;t change this. Dwayne Wade doesn&#8217;t become a spot up shooter just because he&#8217;s on Steve Nash&#8217;s team. I.E. ball-dominating scorers are taking assists away from their teammates.</p>
<p>Pace. More possessions mean more assists, but they also require shorter possessions, which require fewer passes and faster shots. This usually means fast breaks, and loads the assists onto one player. Thus, if 5 pass-happy players play together, either most of them have to sacrafice assists to one player in the name of fast pace, or they all have to sacrafice possessions in the name of ball movement.</p>
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