Archive - February, 2010

Video Killed the All-Star: Vince Goes NOVA

Hi. My name is Rob Mahoney, and I like to video. You may have seen some of my videos at some other video locations. But I’m pleased to announce that I’ll be videoing my videos here at HP as well.

We have decades, nay CENTURIES of tradition here at the Paroxysm, the most celebrated of which is making fun of Vince Carter. So when VC drops 47 on national television, naturally it warrants this post. But it probably warrants a little something extra from us as well, which is where I come in. I present to you, ladies and gents, Vince in full NOVA-vision:

Lamar Odom, Traveler of Worlds

I can only hope that when I’m on my deathbed, I can lay content knowing that I have created something in my lifetime that is as good as that commercial. It’s celestial. It’s otherworldly. It’s astral, stellar, and of galactic proportions. It’s a meteor shower going into a black hole at the center of a supernova.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is the future.

NBA Trade Deadline: The Amare-Philly Trade Rumors Aim For A Three-Way

Possibilities with Philadelphia could be stronger with two fronts, a deal between bringing in swingman Andre Iguodala for Stoudemire with perhaps young power forward Marreese Speights or a three-way deal involving Detroit with Pistons guard Ben Gordon winding up in Philadelphia and the Suns getting Iguodala and Detroit power forward Chris Wilcox. The rub with Iguodala, a 26-year-old former Arizona star, is inheriting a contract that will pay him $56.5 million over the next four seasons.

via Amar’e Stoudemire trade scenarios still plausible for Suns.

Woah, woah, woah. Speights is on the table (allegedly)? This (allegedly) makes this a whole other (alleged) deal.

Speights in Phoenix? Ye Gods. It ain’t Amar’e, but it’s got a world of potential. Speights-Lopez is a pretty fearsome frontcourt and gives them something to build around with Iguodala-Speights until Nash’s time comes to a close.

The Detroit side is interesting. I certainly enjoy the idea of Dumars ditching Gordon, but you still have Hamilton and Tayshaun, so you’re not really going anywhere. Nabbing Speights would be a coup, especially if they can drag a pick out of it. A true rebuilding effort and a mulligan on the ill-advised spending spree? Of course, if they land Amar’e, that’s a different type of coup.

I’ve always thought Amar’e and Detroit would make a good fit. Big city, small market. Traditional power franchise, used to egos. Veteran approach with some younger guys. He’d get to play in the East, guaranteeing an All-Star birth for the next five years. It would give Dumars a credible star to build around (instead of the guys he signed this summer), and would take a ton of pressure off Stuckey. It would also be nice for all of us who said three years ago that Joe Dumars was arguably the best GM in the league to not look completely insane now.

Vince Carter Went NOVA… /sigh

You don’t expect things like this – at least you don’t expect them anymore. You especially don’t expect them after the season we’ve seen from Vince Carter.

There are two different directions I wanted to take this piece as I discuss the night Vince Carter turned back the clock/heart and decided to go Nova (hence the photo above). I’m conflicted on what I saw because we all have the same perception of Vince Carter. He’s the definition of potential. He’s also the definition of wasted potential. I was never of the mindset that Vince could be the new Jordan. There were many things about him that seemed to be lacking. But he had more ability in him than most could ever imagine so when we saw him sputter after nights in which he would excel, we became frustrated and resentful that he would refuse to do the things we wanted to do.

With Vince it was always “if only he would…” because we hoped he would one day grasp his potential, hold onto it like a golden ticket and prance through the streets of the basketball world as he sings, “I’ve got the gollllllden tiiiiiicket!”

But we never really got that from him past the first couple of seasons. Vince was a guy that just didn’t want it and with his tumultuous time in Toronto, we gave him the benefit of the doubt until we were so insulted by his lack of heart that we wanted to destroy him for it. When he moved to New Jersey, we were hopeful a change of scenery would bring out the best in him. And it did on occasion. However, Vince still didn’t want to be that guy. He was content going out there, playing basketball a certain way and collecting his paycheck.

Now that he’s on Orlando (a team that retooled in a risky way after making the NBA Finals last year), we’ve been waiting for him to give this kind of effort. He’s been all over the map for the Magic this season as they’ve waited for him to bring the thunder consistently. Nobody really expects him to do it flair-filled style of dunks and scores around the basket. We’ve accepted the fact that he attacks the basket with three-pointers and long-range shots over high-flying acts of absurdity. But what you’ve wanted out of him is the effort to take this team to the next level, even if it’s just by being a competent basketball player that doesn’t hijack possessions and alienate his teammates with the way he affects games (positively or negatively).

When he scores 48 points during a nationally televised game on just 27 shot attempts, you start to hope that maybe this is it. Maybe this is when he gets locked in with his Magic teammates and finds the extra gear to put them back into the Finals and in a better position to win the whole damn thing. After all, that’s why they brought him in there and let Hedo walk for maple syrup covered pizza.

Part of you is watching and thinking, “yep, this is exactly what this team needs right now.“ They need a go-to guy that can turn a good half into a half that makes you consider forgiving the past decade of malaise. And hopefully in a couple of games, you won’t feel sheepish and naïve for thinking these kinds of thoughts.

Historically, Vince will make you reconsider your hope – which brings me to the other angle of this 48-point performance. Vince flat out knows how to depress a basketball nerd like myself.

As I watched Vince lead the Magic from a 17-point deficit to a six-point win, I couldn’t help but resent him for this performance. To me, Andre Miller’s 52-point outburst the other day was far more probable than this 48-point game from Vince. Not because I think Andre Miller is a better basketball player or a better scorer. I would never be so obtuse to think something like that to be true. But it seemed more probable to me because I didn’t think Vince Carter had the effort left in him.  To score 34 points in the second half of a ball game when his team REALLY needed it seemed so far-fetched to me that a player in the year 2010 who can’t move laterally, can’t shoot threes and basically throws up a 1954-style set shot was more likely to drop around 50 points in a ball game.

This depresses you because of the way he did it. He wasn’t just hoisting up threes and long twos because he was afraid to make contact. He attacked the basket and attacked it often. By my count, he attempted a shot around the basket or in the key 12 times and made 10 of them against the Hornets (he had attempted five shots around the basket more than five times in a game just nine times this season). Granted, he was being guarded by Morris Peterson. I didn’t remember that Mo Pete was even in the NBA up until a week ago and basketball is practically a religion to me. Yet, he still did it.

And it’s not like he was soaring through the air. His steps on the court are the NBA equivalent of intensive labor. He looks out of shape and out of breath most of the time. He moves like one of the old guys at your local gym or YMCA. All of this makes it even more frustrating that he was able to put up a game like this. I was resigned to the fact that Vince Carter simply didn’t have it anymore and didn’t want to have it. I was actually okay with that. Instead, he tried and he tried hard and it worked to the tune of 48 dramatically efficient points. How does that happen?

Ultimately, I still feel cheated by Vince Carter and his career with nights like this reminding me just of that when I thought it was behind me. Did Vince owe the fans and me a different story arc to his career? Not really. Maybe you could argue he owed it to himself but if he’s happy fading into “what could have been” obscurity then that’s on him.

I just could have done without the diabolical casualness of his career. And I could have done without the 48-point reminder that he was an Allen Iverson heart away from burning this place to the ground.

I just didn’t expect this tonight.

ANNOUNCEMENT: Dallas.

Downtown Dallas. on Flickr – Photo Sharing!.

I love Texas.

Never expected to, coming from a state that abhors the big mess. But I moved to Austin, and Austin has a way of making you love Texas and overlook most of what Texas actually is, which is a gigantic space with very little in it.

I really dig Dallas, too, as different as it is from Austin, so when the All-Star game was announced there I was excited. And I was excited last year, and tried to maintain that excitement through a rash of disappointments. Lebron chickening out. Injuries to All-Stars. Etc. The whole world’s been largely disappointing for the last few years, I think everyone would agree. And we continue to try and shake that feeling only to wake up to it again and again. But at least we have Tyreke Evans, and Memphis, and Oklahoma City, and James’ box score, and the ridiculousness of Hedo Turkoglu.

So even though the event likely won’t be as big and memorable as it could have been due to the specific failures of the fates, it’s still All-Star Weekend in a city that does things big, bad, and raucous.

And oh yeah, we’ll be there.

This little website will be providing coverage of the 2010 All-Star Weekend. Not through another connection. This one. Hardwood Paroxysm, official media member.

Getcha popcorn.

Still Standing. Still Here.

Redemption. Determination. Validation.

These are things we all seek.

We seek them in all different aspects of our lives. We seek them in all different avenues of our lives. Most recently, I’ve noticed this search in one of the most cherished activities that I participate in – coaching JV basketball. I know I’ve written about this here before and I’m sorry if it’s getting bothersome but it’s such an invested part of my life (with the final week starting today) and I feel like it helps me make sense of the NBA events that go on.

With our basketball team, you can preach and pretend you know the way to hoops success all you want but if you don’t get the kids to produce tangible results on the court that they can see, it’s hard to prove that all of the work, drilling and practice is actually worth anything. When our team is down, they seem to be REALLY down. Every time we’ve lost a game during our season, we’ve followed it with a second straight loss. We can’t explain why, either. Often it’s a simple issue such as free throw shooting or playing help line defense. But there has been something that holds us from being able to bounce back right away from a loss.

This past week, our team had a chance to wrap up a JV league title with two wins away from our home gym. The two games were against teams we had already beaten at home. In fact, we’d beaten everybody in league up until this point in our campaign. We were 6-0 in league and had designs of going a perfect 10-0 in league. It was something that seemed inconceivable at the beginning of the season but was becoming and more real possibility with every bounce of the ball.

In our first away game of this past week, we were playing a team that nearly came back against us by hitting a ton of improbable three-pointers in the second half. We knew going into their gym, we were likely to suffer a similar barrage of long-range luck because they couldn’t handle us athletically and would be willing to jack up threes in order to upset us.  And that’s exactly what they did – they hit three-pointers in this rematch.

In the final minute of the game, we found ourselves with the ball and down two. Our freshman guard took the ball strongly to the hoop, got fouled and made the basket. He sank the free throw for a three-point play and put us up one with just under a minute left. After some questionable officiating that belabored both sides, the opposing coach received a technical foul, which helped us retain possession of the ball and have a chance to push the lead to three. Instead, we missed both free throws and followed those misses up with two more misses by another player. We were given a chance to ice the game and improve our record to 7-0. Instead, we missed our 13th, 14th, 15th and 16th free throws of the game.

The opposing team went down the court and made a three to go up two. We came back down, put the ball in the hands of our freshman once again and he scored on an aggressive baseline drive to the basket to tie the game. What happened next can only be described as a swift kick to the groin that took away our ability to breathe.

With just four seconds left, they advanced the ball to half court, inbounded the ball to their best shooter, and he drove up the left side of the court. With one of our guys draped all over him defensively, he motored to the left corner of the court. He jumped off one foot (the wrong foot), contorted his body side ways from the deep corner and threw up a running, one-handed floater, Jeff Malone style. Despite the fact that he shot it from the left corner while falling out of bounds, someone how it banked off the backboard and fell through the hoop as time expired.

At that point, there was nothing that could be done. We were beaten. Our perfect league season was murdered. Our chance to clinch sole possession of a league title that week was toast. A desperate team with nothing to lose beat us. We didn’t play with any desperation and it ended up hurting us. We were beaten by a H-O-R-S-E shot.

So what does any of this have to do with the NBA?

Everyone is trying to figure out the bottom half of the Western Conference playoffs. Everybody (including those who don’t have Patella Cake on the line) expect the Thunder to get in despite the fact that they have to prove they can beat Western Conference teams that aren’t the Warriors the rest of the season. Memphis is another feel good story that objective fans seem to be rooting for because their run this season has been so improbable. You also have a starless Houston team scrapping everything together and a Hornets team that will vault to the top of the feel good stories once Chris Paul comes back from his knee surgery.

So where does that leave the Portland Trail Blazers? During the first month of the season, it seemed like they’d be gunning for their own perfect league record. Obviously, they weren’t going 82-0 or challenging the ’96 Bulls for the all-time record but what they were doing was coming together nicely. Their early set backs were significant but nothing that could be considered crippling to the overall success of this season.

Nicolas Batum wasn’t able to start the season with the team because of shoulder surgery. No problem. Rudy Fernandez needed to miss six weeks because of a procedure to alleviate nerve pressure in his back? That’s not an issue. Kevin Pritchard had built this team into a deep roster of “Most Likely To’s” and justified fan favorites. It didn’t matter that Travis Outlaw was going to miss three to five months with foot surgery because they have positional putty to fill these holes. Martell Webster was there to reemerge as the small forward of the future.

But then Greg Oden went down by breaking his kneecap (which was foreseen by everybody but me). At the time, Greg Oden had been a defensive stalwart in the lane. Was he still in dumb foul trouble? Yes. Was he still a step too slow at times? Yes. But his rebounding rate and the amount of block shots he was accumulating in foul trouble-ridden minutes was astonishing. Hell he’s still in Top 50 for blocked shots this season and he hasn’t played in nine weeks. Were 11 points and 8.5 rebounds setting the world on fire like I predicted? No but it was better production than most centers in the NBA were giving their respective teams.

After he broke his kneecap, Joel Pryzbilla decided to join the party too. He ruptured a patella tendon and was also lost for the season. This left Brandon Roy, Martell Webster, LaMarcus Aldridge and the Dre/Blake/Bayless triumvirate to fend for themselves with Jeff Pendergraph, Juwan Howard and Dante Cunningham as the interior presence. Even their coach is injured!

And yet much like Antwone Fisher, they’re still standing. They’re still here. Brandon Roy isn’t coming back until after the All-Star break? No big deal. Andre Miller just scored 52 against one of the eight best teams in the league and I wouldn’t be shocked if Jerryd Bayless had a 40-point explosion chambered for the next opponent.

Their ideal season has been taken away from them with blow after excruciating blow. It’s a sudden, random act of heartbreak that keeps finding new ways to infect the team. And yet they still hold a good record at home and are seven games over .500 right now. They keep getting handed these impossible H-O-R-S-E shots to beat and continue to bounce back.

After my JV team lost that game, we still had a chance to lock up at worst a share of the league title with our next game.

Based on our history of this season, we were slated to lose that game. We were going into a hostile, uncomfortable environment and they played an unconventional, hectic style that was feast or famine. Throughout most of the first half, it was nothing but famine for them. But in the third quarter, their hectic style started to break our kids a bit and you could feel the game about to unravel. Our freshman guard banged heads with a player on a loose ball and ended up splitting open the area between his eyelid and eyebrow so badly that I could see the shape of his eye through his wound. We were turning the ball over and not getting quality possessions.

But then something clicked. All of a sudden, the game started to slow down for our kids and even though we were being pestered, it seemed like we were a step ahead of everybody on the court. We broke the pressure, scored the ball and rebounded their misses. The offense ran properly. The defensive help was always there. The rebounding (led by one of our kids that outworked everybody on his way to 21 rebounds in a 32-minute game) belonged to us. We finished the game on a tear and ended up winning by over 20 in a game that we started to lose control of.

Our kids were doing everything we asked them to do. Free throws were buried. Help defense was a support system the team could rely on. We weren’t taking bad shots. Everything we had been working towards for the previous three months was coming to fruition. We were validating our own claims and stakes on the season at hand. We were redeeming the confidence in ourselves that a BS falling out of bounds, one-handed, running, banked-in three-pointer tried to take away. We were determined to finish our goals from the beginning of the season even if they weren’t exactly what we had envisioned.

The Portland Trail Blazers are getting this same opportunity. It’s easy to look away from them like a broken toy and pretend we don’t care if they make the playoffs this year. We can look to other upstarts like the Thunder, Grizzlies and new-look Rockets as our picks to round out the playoff landscape.

However, ignoring this Blazers team because they seem too injured is a mistake. They’ll be there in the post-season because of three things that injuries have tried but failed to take from them.

Redemption. Determination. Validation.

NBA Trade Deadline: T.J. Ford Is Not The Solution To All Life’s Problems, But Much Like Alcohol, Serves As A Decent Distraction

T.J. Ford had sat for 18 consecutive games, before playing in the last two due to the absence of Earl Watson. He was solid off the bench and Pacers head coach Jim O’Brien admits he’s not sure what he’ll do with his three point guards.

“We’ll find out how this plays out,” O’Brien told The Indianapolis Star on Saturday.

via NBA Rumors – NBA Trade Rumors, Free Agency Rumors and More – Rumor Central – ESPN.

This is a perfect situation for a team with a glaring point guard problem (THE GRIZZLIES) to go out and acquire a guy on the cheap. A valuable starting-caliber point guard (even if he’s 28th, that’s better than 40th) who can score, manage the offense, and get out in transition. Injury issues are there, sure, but it might be worth the risk for certain teams (THE GRIZZLIES) to shoot the Pacers an offer to see what they’re looking for. The Pacers need young talent and space, but also can get suckered into mid-level players because they refuse to properly rebuild.

But as always, the problem is finding value to offer. Point guards naturally have a higher value demanded simply because there aren’t that many even ‘good’ point guards. Which means you end up overpaying or going with a retread. Then again, the Magic went with a retread and their retread beat an All-Star this weekend.

Still, for a roster so woefully conceived, having too many good point guards is a rare boon. If only they’d cash in on it.

NBA Trade Rumors: Where The Celtics Are That Lady Whose Garage Sale Is Horribly Overpriced

  • Kirk Hinrich and John Salmons are available. I would be shocked if the Celtics had not already contacted Chicago about one or both of them, and several outlets have reported that the C’s have inquired about Hinrich.
  • The Celtics will NOT give up Ray Allen in any deal with the Bulls centering around Hinrich or Salmons. This should be obvious, but the Chicago Sun-Times (citing no sources of any kind, not even anonymous ones) gave this notion some credence it doesn’t deserve. If the C’s go for either play, they will offer a combination of expiring deals and wait out Chicago, hoping no contender offers anything better. Boston will only give up Allen for an impact player, and there just aren’t many of those that a) work under the cap; b) are available.
  • via A Shot at Some Definitive Trade Conclusions » Boston Celtics Basketball – Celtics news, rumors and analysis – CelticsHub.com.

    So the Celtics have realized that Ray Allen is NOT an impact player anymore and therefore needs to be moved for them to stay in contention… but they’re only trading him for an impact player.

    Riiiiight.

    I get the argument. The expiring contract is the trade chip, not the player. But the only teams that would really be interested in acquiring Allen are teams looking to boost this season AND contend for a free agent. So, Chicago. If you’re willing to accept you’re probably not winning the title this year (not absolutely, probably), then you can go ahead and go into the offseason and try and acquire an upgrade. Except then Pierce and Garnett are a year more gone. The window’s either open or closed this year. If it’s closed, hang on to Allen, try and move a few other pieces and get your big market club in the market this summer. If it’s not, you’d better try and get the best overall deal you can and push for the playoffs this year. Hinrich and Salmons may not be impact players, bu they can be parts of a championship team. Eddie House was, for God’s sake.

    The Grizzlies Worrying About Making A Bad Trade Is Like Mrs. Lincoln Wondering If The Theatre Was A Bad Idea

    FACE REALITY PEOPLE! Ronnie Brewer can’t get the Grizzlies past those teams as a bench player and he is the best option I have heard so far. CDR? Nice player and a home town connection which could put butts in the arena but is he going to be the player who gets us past Denver or Dallas? I don’t think so.

    The reality is that missing the playoffs might actually work out best in the long run for the Grizzlies anyway. Sure the fans want to see the Grizzlies win a playoff game but they aren’t going to advance this season. Wouldn’t it make more sense to acquire another lottery pick and then next season be in a stronger position to get past the first round of the playoffs?

    There are plenty of top quality players available in the draft. Memphis picking in the top 14 would be guaranteed a player who can step in right away and help score or defend off the bench. Carroll, Young and Thabeet will be a year older and Arthur will as well and he should be healthy too. The team will be a top contender next season – all season – without making a go for broke deal that sacrifices the future well-being of the team.

    via Shopping Season: When to Buy? | 3 Shades of Blue.

    With all due respect to Chip Crain and the boys in three shades, Memphis’ target is pretty specific based on the first half of the season. Not the lottery. Not the second round. First-round exit. Period.

    It’s a terrific pinpoint of how different expectations can be and what those expectations mean for different clubs. For example, the New Orleans Hornets are precisely where Chip’s talking about. They’re not making it past the first round. Under no circumstances are the collective Army-of-Darkness-esque bones of the Hornets’ wings going to be enough to get out of the first round. Peja, Posey, Mosepher? Even if Thornton spontaneously bursts into flame and becomes J.R. Smith with a conscience and rebounding ability, that team isn’t going anywhere. Getting blasted out of the first round similar to last year does them no good, and would actually be harmful. This team has the appearance of a contending team, but in reality it’s not.

    The Grizzlies? A first round exit is FINE. AWESOME. Because it gets Memphis excited about the team being in the playoffs. Getting wiped out in four? Who cares? They weren’t even supposed to make it! Zach Randolph was their big acquisition, for God’s sake! But if this team has a season where they make it to the halfway mark in the 8th spot, beat the Suns on national television, get people to start to buy in, and then fade away into suckitude again? That’s crushing. You ruin all the good will you built up with the hot start.

    Is Ronnie Brewer going to get them over the hump and able to beat LA? Of course not! Nothing barring a miracle would grant that. But Brewer provides an upgrade that could get them into the playoffs and set them up for next year. The biggest reason a trade needs to happen now? Conley.

    I wake up every day and ask myself this question:

    “What starting point guard in the National Basketball Association would I not trade Mike Conley for?”

    I’ve yet to come across an answer. Rafer Alston? By all means. Lou Williams? Heavens, yes. Jonny Flynn? Absolutely. Chris Duhon? … I’d have to think about it, but for not for very long. It’s a glaring hole at a position a running team desperately needs. Wasting time waiting on the “best deal” to come along is just going to wind up putting the pressure back on the Grizzlies. Why? They have nothing of value except Rudy Gay. Teams aren’t going to come calling, even for cap relief, and if they do, I doubt the Grizzlies will take it on.

    Making the playoffs represents an opportunity for the franchise to move past the perception that they ruined themselves in the Gasol trade. It gives a little life to Memphis and gets the young’ns some experience, plus nets Heisley a little extra cash. Making a move now shows a commitment to winning, and that in and of itself is worth the investment. If you’ve got a chance to improve your team in this league, you need to take it, not settle and then yell “Just wait till next year!”

    Just because you’re both bears doesn’t mean you’re the Cubs.

    SITE ANNOUNCEMENT: Because Really, I Don’t Have Enough To Do

    Welcome to Pro Basketball Talk at NBCsports.com, a new venture where we will be bringing you and savoring the next generation of memories.

    What Pro Basketball Talk is about is bringing you one-stop-shopping for your NBA news — from games to the rumors to injuries to just celebrating the game and the players. The model is based on Pro Football Talk, the amazing and successful site Mike Florio and crew have put together. It is the preeminent football blog. We are bringing that model to the Association and we are going to work harder than the Houston Rockets on defense to live up to the incredible standard of PFT. I hope we can someday.

    Want to know what happened in a game you missed? Of course we’ll have that and some insight into why it happened. We’;l let you know about the latest trades and trade rumors. We’ll talk Xs and Os. And we’re going to talk about the fun stuff — like Shane Battier’s new mustache. Which is right out of Reno 911.

    We have Ira Winderman pitching in as well as a Dream Team of NBA bloggers (Matt Moore, Rob Mahoney and John Krolik). The one thing every one of us has in common is that we love the game. We are going to bring that passion to you.

    So bookmark us. Follow the site on twitter. Comment and be part of the community. We will fill up your RSS feed with everything NBA — you’ll get your news fast, correct, with context and opinion sprinkled in, all topped off with a dollop of fun.

    Welcome to Pro Basketball Talk. Take your shoes off and stay a while. Make yourself at home.

    via ProBasketballTalk – Basketball – NBC Sports.

    I am extremely excited this morning to announce that I’m joining NBC Sports’ new NBA Blog, Pro Basketball Talk as their weekend editor (and I’ll be around other times as well). You can find my first post here.  I cannot thank Kurt Helin enough for this opportunity, and for all the support I’ve received from my fellow blogger compatriots. Helin’s a legend out here in the Wild NBA Blogosphere, and when offered a chance to work on a brand new concept with him, I leapt at the chance. Plus, Paroxi-wife thinks this will provide her an opportunity to run away with John Kwraejajfaljdakfda from the Office, and she said I didn’t have any choice.

    So what does that mean for HP?

    ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

    Still here, still babbling, still at FH, still babbling. This was just another opportunity for me to expand and do some new things. If you like HP, you’ll probably dig PBT as well. Fast, angled, little edgy. Kind of like a taco salad with cold chips.That would make me the salsa. You know. ‘Cause I’m SPICE-AY.

    Come join us, RSS, bookmark, tweet, etc. Hit me up, bros and women.

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