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	<title>Comments on: NBA HD: Dismantling the Assist</title>
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	<link>http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2010/03/18/nba-hd-dismantling-the-assist/</link>
	<description>Unbiased opinions from extremely biased people</description>
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		<title>By: David Johns</title>
		<link>http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2010/03/18/nba-hd-dismantling-the-assist/comment-page-1/#comment-60637</link>
		<dc:creator>David Johns</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 May 2010 22:48:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/?p=6227#comment-60637</guid>
		<description>If I were a stat guy, here is what I would track instead of the &quot;assist&quot; stat as we have it now.

1. Quality Shot Setups - Every pass that leads directly to a quality shot (a quality shot is basically an open shot or a shot that results in a shooting foul).  You would also want to include passes that were mishandled by an obviously wide-open teammate in position to score.  These don&#039;t happen a lot, but certainly a few times per game.

2. Count assists for FTs if the pass led to the shooting foul.

3. If you want to get crazy like this article, you need to keep track of the player who took the shot on every potential assist.  If the player took a bad shot, this is partly the passers fault for passing him the ball when it wasn&#039;t a good scoring opportunity(he should know if his teammate has a tendency to take bad shots).  You also need to track where that player was setup, so you know how good of a position it was for them personally to score.  Using per player stats you can get a perfect picture of the shooting % gains.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I were a stat guy, here is what I would track instead of the &#8220;assist&#8221; stat as we have it now.</p>
<p>1. Quality Shot Setups &#8211; Every pass that leads directly to a quality shot (a quality shot is basically an open shot or a shot that results in a shooting foul).  You would also want to include passes that were mishandled by an obviously wide-open teammate in position to score.  These don&#8217;t happen a lot, but certainly a few times per game.</p>
<p>2. Count assists for FTs if the pass led to the shooting foul.</p>
<p>3. If you want to get crazy like this article, you need to keep track of the player who took the shot on every potential assist.  If the player took a bad shot, this is partly the passers fault for passing him the ball when it wasn&#8217;t a good scoring opportunity(he should know if his teammate has a tendency to take bad shots).  You also need to track where that player was setup, so you know how good of a position it was for them personally to score.  Using per player stats you can get a perfect picture of the shooting % gains.</p>
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		<title>By: DSMok1</title>
		<link>http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2010/03/18/nba-hd-dismantling-the-assist/comment-page-1/#comment-49354</link>
		<dc:creator>DSMok1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Mar 2010 18:35:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/?p=6227#comment-49354</guid>
		<description>A discussion about this over at APBR metrics:
http://sonicscentral.com/apbrmetrics/viewtopic.php?t=2532</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A discussion about this over at APBR metrics:<br />
<a href="http://sonicscentral.com/apbrmetrics/viewtopic.php?t=2532" rel="nofollow">http://sonicscentral.com/apbrmetrics/viewtopic.php?t=2532</a></p>
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		<title>By: Troll</title>
		<link>http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2010/03/18/nba-hd-dismantling-the-assist/comment-page-1/#comment-48055</link>
		<dc:creator>Troll</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Mar 2010 14:21:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/?p=6227#comment-48055</guid>
		<description>hey,that&#039;s not Gasol, that&#039;s Radmanovich.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hey,that&#8217;s not Gasol, that&#8217;s Radmanovich.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Tung</title>
		<link>http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2010/03/18/nba-hd-dismantling-the-assist/comment-page-1/#comment-47954</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Tung</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2010 22:18:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/?p=6227#comment-47954</guid>
		<description>So, I&#039;m not sure I&#039;m totally getting this here.  Here seem to be the two different ways to count assists.

1.  Only count potential assists when they actually lead to made baskets.

2.  Count any potential assist, but weight it according to the expected number of points scored on the resulting shot.

So, let&#039;s say Player A passes to Player B, who fires up a two-point shot that has, for the sake of argument, a 55 percent chance of going in.  By reckoning number 1, Player A will get a full assist 55 percent of the time.  By reckoning number 2, Player A will get 1.1 assist all of the time.  On average, reckoning number 2 yields a result that is exactly twice as high (as a result of being counting expected points rather than expected baskets).

It seems to me that (outside of counting treys as 1-1/2 times as valuable as deuces) what this does is just reduce the variance on the result.  Over the course of a season, for instance, you&#039;d expect the two reckonings to be pretty well correlated (modulo the treys again, natch).  Is that so, or am I missing something else?

It also seems that what one could do here is account for the opportunity cost of making the pass.  Player A could have shot the ball.  In some cases, Player A&#039;s shot might even have been better.  You don&#039;t want players who, whatever happens, DON&#039;T take the shot, but always pass.  Accounting for the opportunity cost would reflect that.  Of course, this would be a heck of a lot of work to encode in processing video--and highly-paid human work, too, is my guess.  But maybe some of it could be done by grunts. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, I&#8217;m not sure I&#8217;m totally getting this here.  Here seem to be the two different ways to count assists.</p>
<p>1.  Only count potential assists when they actually lead to made baskets.</p>
<p>2.  Count any potential assist, but weight it according to the expected number of points scored on the resulting shot.</p>
<p>So, let&#8217;s say Player A passes to Player B, who fires up a two-point shot that has, for the sake of argument, a 55 percent chance of going in.  By reckoning number 1, Player A will get a full assist 55 percent of the time.  By reckoning number 2, Player A will get 1.1 assist all of the time.  On average, reckoning number 2 yields a result that is exactly twice as high (as a result of being counting expected points rather than expected baskets).</p>
<p>It seems to me that (outside of counting treys as 1-1/2 times as valuable as deuces) what this does is just reduce the variance on the result.  Over the course of a season, for instance, you&#8217;d expect the two reckonings to be pretty well correlated (modulo the treys again, natch).  Is that so, or am I missing something else?</p>
<p>It also seems that what one could do here is account for the opportunity cost of making the pass.  Player A could have shot the ball.  In some cases, Player A&#8217;s shot might even have been better.  You don&#8217;t want players who, whatever happens, DON&#8217;T take the shot, but always pass.  Accounting for the opportunity cost would reflect that.  Of course, this would be a heck of a lot of work to encode in processing video&#8211;and highly-paid human work, too, is my guess.  But maybe some of it could be done by grunts. :)</p>
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		<title>By: brennan</title>
		<link>http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2010/03/18/nba-hd-dismantling-the-assist/comment-page-1/#comment-47934</link>
		<dc:creator>brennan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2010 19:02:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/?p=6227#comment-47934</guid>
		<description>great assist articles...finally, someone who feels the same way i do....exceptional work!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>great assist articles&#8230;finally, someone who feels the same way i do&#8230;.exceptional work!</p>
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		<title>By: T</title>
		<link>http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2010/03/18/nba-hd-dismantling-the-assist/comment-page-1/#comment-47931</link>
		<dc:creator>T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2010 18:09:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/?p=6227#comment-47931</guid>
		<description>I like the idea but the result of the calculations seems irrelevant. of course dunks are going to be high percentage shots no matter if they were assisted or not. i&#039;d bet more dunks are assisted than not though. if you can&#039;t take the dunk into account, and you can&#039;t take dribble drive kick-outs into account accurately than the formula is flawed from the get-go. assists are hard to measure. how about giving screeners assists for getting guys open? rip hamilton runs around screens all day and all it takes is a 5 foot pass from the top of the key to him to get an assist. Who created that shot? Hamilton, the passer, or the screeners? Its just too hard to quantify.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the idea but the result of the calculations seems irrelevant. of course dunks are going to be high percentage shots no matter if they were assisted or not. i&#8217;d bet more dunks are assisted than not though. if you can&#8217;t take the dunk into account, and you can&#8217;t take dribble drive kick-outs into account accurately than the formula is flawed from the get-go. assists are hard to measure. how about giving screeners assists for getting guys open? rip hamilton runs around screens all day and all it takes is a 5 foot pass from the top of the key to him to get an assist. Who created that shot? Hamilton, the passer, or the screeners? Its just too hard to quantify.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Nolan</title>
		<link>http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2010/03/18/nba-hd-dismantling-the-assist/comment-page-1/#comment-47904</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Nolan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2010 11:41:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/?p=6227#comment-47904</guid>
		<description>Jon, this is a followup to the article last week where he re-weighted assists to correspond to the league average field goal % from the area of the court they came from.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jon, this is a followup to the article last week where he re-weighted assists to correspond to the league average field goal % from the area of the court they came from.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2010/03/18/nba-hd-dismantling-the-assist/comment-page-1/#comment-47896</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2010 08:45:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/?p=6227#comment-47896</guid>
		<description>In addition to what the above poster said, it seems to me that this metric is just as dependent on teammates as regular assists, and perhaps more so.

Replace Dwight Howard with Chuck Hayes, and suddenly all of Jameer Nelson&#039;s dunk assists are &quot;close shot&quot; assists.  As the above poster points out, this would actually hurt the team, since those close shots aren&#039;t converted at anywhere near the rate that dunks are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In addition to what the above poster said, it seems to me that this metric is just as dependent on teammates as regular assists, and perhaps more so.</p>
<p>Replace Dwight Howard with Chuck Hayes, and suddenly all of Jameer Nelson&#8217;s dunk assists are &#8220;close shot&#8221; assists.  As the above poster points out, this would actually hurt the team, since those close shots aren&#8217;t converted at anywhere near the rate that dunks are.</p>
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		<title>By: 3/19/2010 Update &#171; B-Ball</title>
		<link>http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2010/03/18/nba-hd-dismantling-the-assist/comment-page-1/#comment-47891</link>
		<dc:creator>3/19/2010 Update &#171; B-Ball</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2010 06:34:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/?p=6227#comment-47891</guid>
		<description>[...] Hardwood Paroxysm Blog Archive NBA HD: Dismantling the Assist [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Hardwood Paroxysm Blog Archive NBA HD: Dismantling the Assist [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jon</title>
		<link>http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2010/03/18/nba-hd-dismantling-the-assist/comment-page-1/#comment-47876</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2010 00:22:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/?p=6227#comment-47876</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure I can really trust the rough metric used in this article because it devalues assists that lead to at rim shots and three pointers, the two most effective shots in the game. At rim shots are the easiest baskets you can get and three pointers have the bonus of higher scoring reward for making it. How much stock can you really put in a system that rewards playmakers for making passes to teammates for tough shots (thus the disparity in potential versus actual for 2pt jumpers and close shots) while punishing them for creating easy buckets?

While I really admire your work, Haberstroh, I think your system of valuing assists needs a lot more work before it can be taken seriously. The true measure of an assist is whether it creates an easier shot for your teammate, and just how much easier you&#039;ve made the shot. Simply rewarding point guards for potential shots is silly since it is much easier to create lots of bad shots that are potential assists rather than getting a few easy buckets.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure I can really trust the rough metric used in this article because it devalues assists that lead to at rim shots and three pointers, the two most effective shots in the game. At rim shots are the easiest baskets you can get and three pointers have the bonus of higher scoring reward for making it. How much stock can you really put in a system that rewards playmakers for making passes to teammates for tough shots (thus the disparity in potential versus actual for 2pt jumpers and close shots) while punishing them for creating easy buckets?</p>
<p>While I really admire your work, Haberstroh, I think your system of valuing assists needs a lot more work before it can be taken seriously. The true measure of an assist is whether it creates an easier shot for your teammate, and just how much easier you&#8217;ve made the shot. Simply rewarding point guards for potential shots is silly since it is much easier to create lots of bad shots that are potential assists rather than getting a few easy buckets.</p>
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