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Nate Thurmond Talks Quadruple Doubles, Provides Some Perspective

While I was watching the post-game press conferences on NBATV after the games tonight (yes, I’m aware that I have too much free time on my hands), I saw on the crawl that Dwight Howard is now the first player to ever lead the league in both rebounding and blocked shots in back-to-back seasons. In fact, he’s the only guy to ever claim two rebounding titles and two shot-blocking titles. (He’s also the youngest player to ever win two DPOY trophies.)

I was already aware of all this, but it was a reminder of a great accomplishment by a guy who still probably doesn’t get as much respect as he deserves

But it’s also definitely not true.

See, the NBA unfortunately didn’t start recording blocked shots until the 1973-74 season, which I’m sure you already knew, and guys like Wilt and Russell almost certainly led the league in both of these stat categories on multiple occasions. From all the accounts of those who watched these legends play, they would have games where they blocked 20 shots. And no one would even really notice. That really puts Dwight’s 9-block Game 1 against the Bobcats into perspective, eh? Attaboy, Superman, and you’re the undisputed DPOY and all that (although my boy Josh Smith did amazing things this season), but let’s not get it twisted and start thinking that Dwight is controlling the backboard like no one else ever has.

As I was Google-fact checking to make sure that 1973-74 was indeed the inaugural season of the block-recording era, I came across a must-read column from 2006 by Hall of Famer Nate Thurmond that punctuates this point perfectly. (By the way, it truly pains me that I feel like I have to identify Thurmond with the “Hall of Famer” tag. But such is life in 2010 in the NBA internet universe.)

Nate was the “first” player to ever record a quadruple-double, and while he’s honored to be remembered as the first guy to ever do it, he also thinks it’s a somewhat silly label.

Don’t get me wrong: I’m truly honored. It’s certainly a rare accomplishment. It took 12 years before the feat was ever accomplished again, and only three guys have posted a quadruple-double since I had mine.

But you know and I know and any good basketball fan knows that there were plenty of quadruple-doubles back in the 1960s. When I first came into the league, I played alongside with Wilt Chamberlain, and there were nights he and I were playing volleyball out there on the floor.

He goes on to mention that Russell certainly had tons of quadruple-doubles and that Oscar Robertson probably had plenty of his own, using steals instead of blocks as the fourth category. There’s one other guy that Nate also knows had a lot of unrecorded-quadruple doubles as well.

He is the only other player aside from Wilt to ever average more than 20 ppg and 20 rpg in a season.

And his name is Nate Thurmond.

And hey, don’t forget about me. You think I never had a quadruple-double before 1973-74, when the NBA first started recording blocks and steals? Let me put it this way: I had 12 blocks in my quadruple-double game, and it was my 12th year in the league. That’s with two bad knees and more than 30,000 minutes pounding NBA floors, night after night. You bet I had plenty of quadruple-doubles before 1974.

I’m not trying to brag, but there were games where it was ridiculous the number of shots I blocked. When I was young, there were nights when guys couldn’t come close to getting shots off on me. Only Russell could have blocked more in his career.

I’d really like to know where I stand with blocks for my entire career. When you look at the list of career blocked shots leaders today, Russell and I are nowhere to be found. Quite frankly, that list is filled with pretenders to the title, all because the NBA didn’t record blocks for any of Bill’s and the majority of my career. Sure, I could put up points, but my game was really defense, so I’m a little disappointed that most of my blocks were never recorded.

Please do yourself a giant favor and go read the entire article. He discusses his entire career in depth, talking openly about his thoughts on being traded from San Francisco Warriors to the Chicago Bulls. It was bittersweet because he didn’t want to leave the Bay, but he also thought heading to Chicago was a good opportunity to play for a team that really wanted him.

And how exactly did Nate show his new Windy City brethren that the feeling was mutual?

Oh, just by, ya know, dropping a quadruple-double in his first-ever game as a Bull.

Looking back, I remember I was busy and was very active in the game, but I didn’t think about it in terms of a quadruple-double. We went into overtime, won the game, and I remember thinking it was a great way to start the season. That’s what made it so special.

One thing I distinctly remember was going back to my apartment after the game—I was just dead. I didn’t realize I had numbers spread out like that, across four categories until the next morning. It was my 12th year, and from that standpoint, the quadruple-double was just another game. But, as I look back now, I realize just how special a performance it was. At the time, nobody even talked about triple-doubles, so no one was really aware that I’d done something unprecedented.

As we all watch in amazement at what Dwight Howard can do on the court, let’s just make sure we’re clear on one thing: Just like Nate’s quad-dub, Superman’s accomplishment may be officially unprecedented, but it’s not actually unprecedented.

It’s sort of like his nickname in that sense.

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I actually agree with Sam. and whereas for Robert, hand check rule is exactly the reason why block shots might have decreased in this era of basketball because its always in the favour of the offense. And we just have different athletes today, and they are better equipped for the game. things like basketball shoes rather than your converse all-stars, healthy eating and weight trainig make them stronger, faster, quicker than ever before. Im not saying Bill couldnt compete in todays game, if he had the same learning proccess like younger players today, I bet he will still be great, but blocking 20 shots a game will still be hard to achieve. Plus, in the early 60s most players were white, im not going to start a racial debate, but anyone knows African American are more gifted athletes hands down, therefore Bill and Wilt can will themselves just that much easier. But its just my opinion.

God Bless Nate Thurmond.
Your(writer's) point about "blocks" not being a stat until (relatively) recently is well taken in that it means we can't use absolutes like "ever" when we are just talking about times within the ESPN-look back. Same is true of "sacks" in football. Before we developed a need for defensive "stats," there were a lot of fine defensive players who quite frequently "threw the opponent for a loss" but it was never recorded (certailny not accumulatively) as "career sacks." Gotta wonder how Hall of Famers like Bill Willis and Chuck Bednarik would stack up on an "all time" sacks list.

Robert I'm not sure how what you said refutes any of my arguments? You're stating that offense was harder back in the day right? So then defense was easier to play, and blocks were easier to accumulate and should be taken less seriously then we take them today? Um... isn't that my point?

Oh, and I do watch Hardwood Classics from time to time. I am a student of the game. But if you think that a prime Jordan or Lebron couldn't have dunked on Bill Russell (who Lebron is bigger, faster, and more talented than), then it is you who needs to start watching today's game and appreciate the level of athlete we're now watching.

Agree with Sam and Seth. I believe that in "the old days" Smush Parker could be a star player. There were few really good players, fewer teams etc. so basically the league was on a different level...and I'm just wondering - has NBA destroyed all the tapes from 60's? Can't you just watch them and make the stat sheets to see if Wilt had 20 blocked shots game after game?

I find the comparison to be somewhat ridiculous. Russell and Wilt did not play in a league where 95% of the players can finish at the rim or even dribble with two hands, for that matter.

It takes nothing away from their accomplishments in their own time, but yes, Dwight Howard blocking 9 shots in a game in 2010 is a hell of a lot harder than blocking 10 or even 20 shots in 1960. There is no doubt whatsoever that Dwight controls the backboard like no one ever has.

Kareem gave Nate Thurmond the ultimate compliment saying he was the best defensive center he ever played against, and he really didn't grasp the NBA game until he experienced Nate in the paint. He was also one of the most amazing physiques in the game at the time. He was like a living breathing Micheangelo.

Sam I read your comment and I really disagree. You have to understand that in 1990 the NBA switched to the new pu$$y rules. Most of the players now would not be averaging close to the amount of points. First rule hand checking. Basically now on offense you can run free and drive with out anyone touching you. And just a note I grew up watching some of those guys play and the level of competition hasn't gotten any better. Some of those players could play all 5 positions in a game. Last player to do that was Magic Johnson. Time to go watch some hardwood classic tapes and you'll find that the game has evolved into score more points and dunks. LOL watch some video on some one trying to dunk on Russell or Wilt you see the difference...

Not to take away from the awesome players that were Nate Thurmond, Bill Russell, and Wilt, but I really hate it when people wax poetically about the "old days" and talk about how some of those guys could have been blocking 20 shots per game. It's utterly ridiculous. There were a lot more possessions back then and way more terrible shooters so it could have happened once or twice, but to give them credit that it was done on a regular basis is too much.

Put it this way, in 01-02, Dikembe Mutombo averaged 2.4 blocks a game at the listed ages of 35-36. This was his 13th year in the league. In 74-75, Thurmond also averaged 2.4 blocks per game. This was his 12th year in the league and he was 33 years old. Mutombo maxed out with 4.5 blocks per game in his 5th season (with only 1 10 block game), why should we believe that Thurmond did better? Because he says so?

And don't get me started on his claim that he had way more quadruple doubles than the one he got. His highest per game assist average was 4.2. I can't find game logs but I'd be curious how many triple doubles he actually had before we even consider whether or not he had anymore quadruple doubles.

Wilt and Russell were two separate beasts since they played mostly in the 60s and were (according to their stats) excellent passing big men. Of course, bringing them up opens up the whole can of worms about possessions, shooting percentages, and level of competition, so we should leave them alone.

I don't want to discredit these older players and their accomplishments because they deserve our love and adulation, just that we should think twice before taking them at their word about accomplishments they think they had without any sort of numbers to back them up. Afterall, I bet if you asked an 8 year old kid sitting in the crowd for the Magic game 1 win he would swear Dwight blocked 15 shots.

On a related note, the "double" thing is overrated. Ten is an arbitrary number. Using this concept, all five statistical catagories are weighted equally, so ten points are given the same weight as ten blocked shots. I couldn't figure out how to look this up, but I am willing to bet that there were more fifty point games this season than ten block games. If there is going to be a stat like double doubles, it should take into account league averages or percentages of shots taken, something.

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  1. [...] wrote a piece on all those things today over at Hardwood Paroxysm. So if you like Nate Thurmond and quadruple-doubles go read it. If you don’t, shoot me an [...]

  2. [...] A most excellent find about former Cavalier Nate Thurmond and his quadruple-double and 20/20 season. [Hardwood Paroxysm] [...]